David Ziegler-Voll, Head of Brand & Creative at Flexcar

In this episode of the Kirk and Kurtts Design podcast, Kirk and Andy are joined by special guest David Ziegler-Voll, a veteran of the in-house creative industry. They discuss the importance of good design principles, the role of in-house design teams, the value of trust, and the challenges of designing for specific communities. They also touch on the evolution of in-house design teams over the years. Overall, the conversation highlights the power of good design and the importance of fostering a creative, collaborative team environment.

Transcript

David Ziegler-Voll, Head of Brand & Creative at Flexcar

[00:00:00] 

Andy: I am excited to introduce our guest, David Ziegler Vole.

Andy: I met David years ago. I don't even know when it was, but it was when he was working at Trader Joe's in Boston and I was working at the Fresh Market and how Design Conference had a conference in Boston and David and his team rolled up there and. Jessica, who we all love, she's amazing. She was there.

Andy: But they brought me and my coworker Alex Trader Joe's, Boston bags. It was amazing. It was so cool cuz it was like, we like all saw each other as like in-house. Designers at grocery stores and we were just like, I know your issues. I know mine. Yeah. I don't know. We just saw each other.

Andy: So anyways, 

Kirk: kindred spirits as it [00:01:00] were. Exactly. 

Andy: And I've been connected with David ever since. Since then he has left Trader. He did Amazing Market. Trader Joe's. He created some of the most iconic stuff. If you go into Trader Joe's right now, you will see his work on display. Not the case at Fresh Market.

Andy: They've replaced all my stuff with a line. Look, we'll talk about that later. But you can still see David's work at Trader Joe's. Then he went on to do a bunch of amazing stuff. He worked at Imperfect Foods, building an in-house team, creative team, and now he is currently at Flex Car and he's, you're building a team there as well, right?

Andy: In leading a 

David: team. Yep. And 

Andy: so yeah, so he's basically been this like master of in-house design creative, but then also team leader, which we'll talk about later. But I'm so excited to have David. It's take us, taken us forever to get him on the [00:02:00] show. Not his fault. It's our fault before our terrible scheduling, but so excited to have him on the show.

Andy: Welcome David, to the show. 

David: Thank you so much. I'm super excited to chat it up with you guys. 

Kirk: Yay. Welcome, David. And hands down, that was the longest introduction you've ever had, so Andy. Good job on that. No, it's no 

David: pressure on my part. 

Andy: No, Kirk, it's not. I think the 

David: interviews, I think it's over, right?

David: Yeah, we're 

Andy: done. We're done. All right. And Kirk. Bye Kirk. It's not the longest intro. The other longest one was the other one I did, I think for Jessica.

Kirk: So here's the thing, dude, when Andy asked to introduce the person, he's very excited. So if there is going to be some fanboying out we're both probably fanboy, fangirl out. And just 

David: make sure that we get excited. 

Kirk: Yeah. Make sure that we cover every single base that we can.

Kirk: Exactly. When we have talented people on, we like to pick their brains and [00:03:00] also see how they work. Yay. Happy about this. Yeah. So one of the questions that we ask, and thanks again for coming on, one of the questions we ask is, what is your origin story like? What made you get into design and what led you to what you're doing today?

David: I would say my career has been very non-traditional. Like I've done a lot of different things in my creative career. I actually got my start as a visual merchandiser at Macy's. That was my, my, my school, how I supported myself during my college years. Even before that when I was maybe a freshman or sophomore in college, I, my job was basically dressing the bookstore windows.

David: That's awesome. That's cool. I've always had like a keen eye for opportunity and I knew that I didn't want to sit behind a desk doing something that wasn't creative, but if I was gonna have a job that I wanted to make sure that I was doing something that. [00:04:00] Spoke actually that job where I was dressing the bookstore windows is pretty funny because essentially all I would do is I'd put up these backdrops and I would just paint really whatever I wanted.

David: I was a painting major. And then that window would be up for a week and I would take the painting take it down, just take it home. And then two or three months later, we just have a show of these. That's awesome. 

Kirk: That is so awesome. Now how big were they though? I'm trying to think how 

David: big were these?

David: Huge? Yeah. They were sizable. I would say probably I don't know, at least six feet wide by six or seven feet tall perhaps. Wow. Wow. 

Kirk: That's really cool. And that that even afford you the opportunity to even cut it into smaller sc squares and put up like this big dimorphic on the board.

Kirk: And have it just chunked up. But then people can pick the size they want and they could have bought it that [00:05:00] way. Next time you're working as a window person, it can 

David: hopefully never

David: see. Fingers crossed. So the origin story continues in a kind of interesting way. I had graduated with a BFA in photography, switched over my discipline to photography. Which actually was very useful throughout my career. Just either being behind the camera or art directing food styling shots for Trader Joe's.

David: My, I thought I wanted to get my mfa from the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, New Mexico. So after I graduated from college, I was already engaged to my now wife. And her parents were like we'll pay for you guys to go wherever you want to go. And we picked Albuquerque, like literally could have gone anywhere.

David: Probably wouldn't have been my first choice. Neither of us actually had ever been there. We just were like Albuquerque, like through the oh, maybe I'll get my, was this 

Andy: before or after breaking bed? 

Kirk: Yes. Oh, was this before or [00:06:00] after? 

David: Oh, through the map. This is way before way 

Andy: before way before.

Andy: Okay. Okay. So it wasn't 

David: soil. Soil. Dude, it's something funny about Albuquerque. I actually went back for a marathon in 2018 and the Uber driver, so you just 

Kirk: wait a second. I'm gonna stop you right there. He just wanted to interrupt us and say that he ran a marathon. That's all this is a premise to, so 

Andy: that's Kirk, that's a whole nother thing that like we can have a design discussion with David and then we can have an endurance.

Kirk: Wow. Sports. That's amazing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, David, you went back to Albuquerque, Mexico. I asked, 

David: so I asked the Uber driver, I was like, did Breaking Bad do a disservice? Albuquerque did it actually. And they were like, actually it's actually much worse than what they portrayed.

David: Wow. We're young. We're poor. My wife. Where were you at? 

Andy: Where were you now? Were you in Boston? Is that where you're from? 

David: No. I am originally from the Midwest. I grew up in Wisconsin. My family moved to the rural [00:07:00] south, like the Alabama, Georgia border. Don't trust those southerners. Yeah, I was 12 or 13, as you can imagine.

David: It was like I wasn't wildly popular with the ful down. No. So anyway we had these random part-time jobs and one of the places I worked is a retailer called Buffalo Exchange which is a buy, sell trade sort of clothing store. They, when I started, they had maybe 16 locations.

David: I think they have close to 40 now. They're in mostly like college towns. So we have, there's at least four of them here in Boston. But I started working just as a normal person retail. Work. And I was really shocked to find out that it was this sort of like little chain of stores and it was very dumpy.

David: And so I wrote the owners a letter saying that they should make me their visual director, and this is what I would do. I would redesign all of their store interiors and I would shape their brand. [00:08:00] And so they actually, the owners flew me to Tucson, Arizona. I gave 'em a little presentation and they hired me as their visual director and they relocated us.

David: Amazing. Wow. So that was really like my first sort of real creative job. I also understand the privilege I have as somebody who had almost zero experience with things like lighting and flooring, but I faked it and yeah it was the mid to late nineties and I was traveling.

David: All over just San Diego, San Francisco, la Wow. Portland, Oregon, Seattle. Just designing the store, interiors, the store exteriors, the fixtures. Deciding which dress forms we should use. The whole thing. It was a blast. It was a really, and yeah, it was just I, again, identifying that opportunity of I don't know, maybe there's something here.

David: Let's throw it out into the universe. That's really cool. 

Kirk: All right. So [00:09:00] that's awesome. Yes. So Buffalo Exchange and then where this is a great origin 

Andy: story. I know. It's amazing. 

David: I was there for about four years. I then went to work at a ad agency and the ad agent, ad agency serviced a lot of like car dealerships in southern Arizona.

David: So this was not super hyper creative work. Sure. I could tell you, Fact, all car dealers are scum. Like they tell, they like would tell you like, oh, all of the warranty packages that they sell. It's total bullshit so these were, this was not a job that I knew I was gonna be long for.

David: So I stuck it out for a year before finally quitting. Although one of, one of the car dealers, I think his name was Cliff, this guy was like six seven, about. 300 pounds, big dude. And I was thinking like you think about those cheesy car commercials and that's what I was doing. Basically like making [00:10:00] radio ads, outdoor, everything 

Andy: must go. 

David: Yeah. So there's basically four lines. It's one of them is there's never been a better time to, yes. So I asked Cliff if he would be, so one of the dealerships was Volkswagen. And I was like how would you feel about wearing leader hose and imagine a sky that's 6, 7, 300 pound wearing leader hose.

David: As long as it sells cars, I'll do it. Yeah. And so I, in my mind, conceptually what I wanted to do is make the most ridiculous local tea. If it's gonna be local let's make it as, so I try to bring in every single convention from a slide whistle I brought in a goat. That would bite Cliff a butt and then his hat, his little go up and how the the holding.

David: So yeah, that lasted a year and then I decided I wanted to go out on my own. And so I started my own freelance little design studio. And I knew [00:11:00] based on the work that I had done at this agency, like who I didn't want my clients to be. So basically I just, I was like, I wanna work with the cool restaurants in Tucson.

David: I want to work with arts organizations. I want to work for. Even some social justice things. And that's what I did and it was really successful. And when I think about the breadth of work that I created, again, really diverse, like just a, if you ever find yourself in Tucson, Arizona, there's the historic Rialto Theater, which was completely refurbished, the giant massive, like 80 foot tall neon blade.

David: I designed that. Whoa. Pretty weird. So that's cool. Yeah. Wow. Another kind of like fun thing about having the design studio at that time is that Tucson is a, it's not a place you go to like really ascend in your career. It's a very easy place to exist, but there's not a lot of [00:12:00] money. Yeah. But I did a really good job of there really wasn't a service or a restaurant where I wasn't just eating for free cause I would build it into my invoicing.

David: So I was Yeah. Clever 

Kirk: with that. Smart, brilliant barter. Yeah. That's really smart. 

David: During this time I was in a variety of different bands but the last band I was in was serious. And I'd say serious, like we were all committed to it. And we had gone on a tour around the Southwest and it's not, it was very difficult because from Tucson to Albuquerque, 600 miles, Albuquerque to Denver, another 600 miles, you, it's not a place where you can just hit different little college towns.

David: Yeah. Yeah. So we made the decision to move to the East Coast and we picked again, another random city that none of us had been to Providence, Rhode Island. I convinced my wife and my dogs and the whole band we all just moved to the East [00:13:00] coast for the sole reason of trying to this is like last go at at being in a band.

David: So during that time, so we moved, we're now we're in Providence, Rhode Island. I was still servicing my clients in Tucson, Arizona. And boy, this is a long story. No, you're good. We're good. This is great. Anybody's oh god, this guy's going on. This is amazing. 

Kirk: We don't have to ask any questions.

Kirk: This is perfect. 

David: Yeah, so I I went back to Tucson to meet with a client and somehow Trader Joe's had come up and I was like, oh, it's funny. And it was basically we were talking about brands and companies that were doing really interesting things. I was like, oh, it's really interesting that you bring up Trader Joe's because my wife Heidi had sent me a job listing for a PA senior package designer for Trader Joe's.

David: And I was like, and he was like, and you're not gonna apply for it. This is my [00:14:00] client. He was like, you absolutely have to apply for this job. And I was like I don't know, whatever. So I get back to Providence and I look at the job description. I'm like, I haven't done a lot of packaging. I would say that was probably at the bottom of my wheelhouse at the time.

David: And I wrote them a cover letter that. And as a hiring manager now, I really appreciate a good cover letter and I could see why it went that way, but it basically started. I think the first line of my cov cover letter was, I'm not the most qualified person for this job, but I'm the candidate that you should hire.

David: And then I went on this whole long thing about how I was taking the George Costanza approach and gonna do the opposite of everything that I would normally ever do et cetera, et cetera. And I think that the phone, the TA of the cover letter actually got me the job versus like the actual portfolio.

David: I found out years later. My supervisor [00:15:00] had shown me scores that he had written on. He had actually printed out the portfolios, which is perfect for this person. But had given me a C minus on my portfolio Wow. Compared to the other, like Jesus for this job. But yeah, it worked out. I I tell my team this all of the time.

David: I, I came out of Trader Joe's 10 times. The designer I was prior to starting. It was definitely, yeah. The place where I really sharpened and honed my design skills. It was also a place where unlike being at an agency where you're locked into these super strict brand guidelines.

David: Yeah. It was like the wild west. Yeah. And so having the freedom to even push back on vendors and question what can I do? Can I do a hot foil stamp? Can I do an emboss? Like really any, anywhere I could find the opportunity, I'll use that word a lot today probably. But to push the design or see what we can do with it.

David: [00:16:00] And not just the design, but also conceptually thinking about the copy. Where can we add in surprise and delight something unexpected that the customer, if the customer doesn't see it, it doesn't negate the experience of that product or that thing or that message. But if you do, if you are let in on the joke, then suddenly it creates this secondary, tertiary moment where it's that's that's the thing.

David: I think that, yeah. So important. And that's not even. Specific to, to grocery or private label grocery. But it's how I approach all my work is finding those like little moments. Yeah. So that 

Kirk: That's a lot. So let me get this straight painter, photographer, marathon or musician that's that was like, okay.

Kirk: It was painting. Then I started doing window murals. I said, oh, this is stupid. I'm gonna be a photographer. And I said, oh, this is dumb. I'm gonna start running [00:17:00] marathons. I'm gonna go back and get a job as a designer. Let's do that. It's just like this very non-sequential, it's all like art related, right?

Kirk: But it's this very random pattern to get to where you're designed today. And I just admire that so much because I don't have that type of discipline. Or focus, like 

Andy: you've Kirk, you've lived many lives. Similar. We all love that. We all have. Yeah. Like we, yeah. We all, I think as creatives, we all have this sort of anxious sort of energy that we needed to go explore and search Yeah.

Andy: And things like that. I don't, I, yeah. I think, yeah. You haven't, I. I don't know. You've done similar sort of Yeah. Expanses of experience as well. 

Kirk: Yeah. And I, it's, I think it's really cool, David, that [00:18:00] you're like mentioning the fact that you had privilege because you knew something, or you got this because you're a candor.

Kirk: And it just goes to show that sometimes you get a little lucky and that luck turns into something great and you always had the skill there, but you were actually given the opportunity to show your skills. Which is really neat. And I think when you were talking about the Trader Joe's design and we all three have worked in retail from the design.

Kirk: I've worked selling in retail, I've also worked doing circulars for retail for like Albertsons and Safeways and The Fresh Market and U Trader Joe's. And it's like there's a certain pace that comes along with working in retail and how you know, people don't know that you're working. Yeah. You're working eight months out or nine months out.

Kirk: So yeah everything for Christmas is done, right? That's all done. People who are working on Christmas stuff, like more than likely they're gonna be done with it. And so with that rapid pace, you have to just churn things out. But the [00:19:00] thing that blew my mind was that you said, I was able to push back and able to do these things.

Kirk: It's That's really cool because I never had that luxury as a, in retail, it was like, you're doing the circular, here's what we're doing. 

Andy: You're giving a, you're giving guides the Yes the parameters and yeah. 

David: Yeah. 

Kirk: So hearing you break the rules is really cool. And it shows the design especially Yeah, like in the last 10 years.

Kirk: The biggest thing for me is like the blueberry pomegranate tea change. I notice those little things. I'm a frequenter at Trader Joe's and. Seeing like more additions of colors all the different like trader names, which are probably starting to go borderline or ACEs, so they need to pull back on those a little bit.

Kirk: But it was, it's always just so neat to see the evolution of that, of Trader Joe's is continually evolving. Yeah. The only thing that's remained the same really is the brand and the Hawaiian shirts. So it's really great to hear from you. And[00:20:00] I was just wondering how do you apply.

Kirk: Those direct experiences now, because you said it made you 10 times the designer, but what structural things, what processes and what things have you pulled from there to help you moving forward at your new spot now? 

David: Yeah, I think it's a good segue actually into like the last latter part of the origin story, which is a, after Trader Joe's, I've been there for 10 years.

David: The people that work there don't leave and there's a reason for that. It's pretty, it's a pretty cushy. Place to be as a designer. My superior wasn't going anywhere. There was really nowhere for me to ascend to, and I felt like I had just even just from a design, being a designer in the space with the same designers, designing for the same brand despite having a lot of creative freedom, I've, I felt like I needed to you plateaued.

David: Yeah, I plateaued for sure. So I went to work for a c PPG firm and I had pro, [00:21:00] I had promised myself way back in the day, I would never work for an agency again. But here was this opportunity for a creative director role with a global agency, but on the smaller side but doing a lot of like grocery.

David: Consumer packaged good stuff. So I felt like that piece of it was a good fit. The really funny thing about Trader Joe's, and it's similar to if somebody were to come over to my house and say, oh my God, will you come to my place and tell me what I should do? And you're like, okay. So you go over to the person's house and you're like, I will put up some like really beautiful like wallpaper.

David: And I went, do this wall, like a dark heel. And then that person's I dunno if that's really that was my agency experience because I was working with seven 11 and their private label, and they're like, oh, we want we want our pH water to look like the smart, what do they call smart water?

David: What they have the kind crazy, they outsource some of their [00:22:00] designs. Yeah. We really and here's the worst thing, right? It's oh, we really want to appeal to millennials. It's okay, all right. Like big eye roll, yeah. And so when I think about the amount of work that we'll never see the light of day we're talking about not just nine iterations of a design something for 7-Eleven that's very fucking cool but nine completely different designs that are all equally as never see the light of day.

David: That's gut wrenching. It was very discouraging. And also I think it's, it was just one of those things where there, there's a certain amount of cred that Trader Joe's has, and it got dangled around, but it was really like nobody really wanted to bite into that, which was right.

David: And I'm like, are you freaking kidding me? This is literally like the secret sauce of Trader Joe's and you don't want it. Okay. Yeah. So I didn't really last there that long. I was there for a year. And it just was mutual. This wasn't the [00:23:00] experience I was looking for. Also agency life.

David: I don't know if you guys have been in that world, but it's nobody gives a shit about anybody. No. Yeah. I got a call from a previous colleague at Trader Joe's who's working for this sort of quirky grocery startup called at the time Imperfect Produce which is a grocery subscription service.

David: They. I met with the C M O. They were just starting to get into like private label grocery and expanding their assortment. So if you're unfamiliar with imperfect produce the concept is basically wonky potatoes and peppers that conventional grocery stores don't want to sell or cancel normally.

David: Yeah. Yeah. So they rescue those and sell 'em to the customer at a fraction of the cost. The business model actually did not scale very well, but, I built out a very cool in-house creative team. I was responsible for rebranding [00:24:00] imperfect produce to imperfect foods. The company exploded during Covid as you can imagine, because people stopped going to the grocery store and wanted our groceries delivered. And so when Martha Hale also former colleague, I brought her on, she became our Chief Merchandising officer. And in concert with the then C E o Philip Bain we're really trying to aside from just like the missions startup, the saving, the wonky produce build out basically like the online version of Trader Joe's.

David: And we were so close. We did some really cool stuff. Again, the Wild West didn't lock us into a stringent brand guide for the private label grocery. Built out their lifestyle content site. I had videographers, photographers and art director. I hired Tegan harmony, who I had also sort, trader Joe's brought her on board.

David: So we, we had this like [00:25:00] really cool unit and for about a year and a half produced what I would consider to be. One of the, I dunno. I would I would consider it to be a hallmark of my career in terms of the scope, the breadth of the work and how that was executed and how that lived from the potato chip bag to creating an experience that lives somewhere else to engage the customers in a way that's unexpected.

David: Really proud of that work. I'm sad that what happened with the company happened, but. Covid ended, people started going back to the grocery store and they lost a tremendous amount of their base. So there was a huge round of layoffs laid off the c e o. Yeah. And then Miss Fitz, my understanding is Miss Fitz's market, they're their main competitor, purchased them.

David: The c e o of Miss Fit's market said the two things that they were most excited about that purchase was one, the logistics and operations. And second was the sophisticated private label program. Wow. So feel really validated by that. [00:26:00] Yeah, and then I was laid off and took a couple months off just to figure out what I wanted to do.

David: And then interviewed for a position for a company called FlexCar. So this is my second startup and it's, I'm building a very similar style of team, but it's in a space that's really foreign to me. And so I think. It's been and just for people who don't know what Flex car is, it's a car subscription.

David: It's basically a flexible, smarter alternative to car ownership. So if you are living in a city, you are gonna be in, in Atlanta for three months, and you don't want to buy a car or rent a car, which is insanely expensive. It's a monthly subscription so you can sign up. It's less than a car payment.

David: You don't have to deal with car dealers or laying out thousands of dollars. But again, it's, it is like a new thing for me cause it's a, it's more of a whereas trader Joe's as a product or [00:27:00] imperfect foods is a service and a product. This is a service. So messaging that and designing around that, creating the brand guidelines, designing the brand was just promoted actually to head of brand and creative which is super fun.

David: Nice. Nice. Yeah it's been challenging, but also like super fun. I have a rockstar team. It's a really it's a really good place for me right now. Wow. 

Andy: That was gonna, that was gonna be one of my questions was most of what you've done has been food and beverage related, and now you're more in a tech area and what those major differences were between the two Because I would've a hard time because I've always worked in food and beverage, like not working in that space.

Andy: And so what are some of those major differences that you've 

David: noticed? I so much of [00:28:00] FlexCar lives in the digital space. So it's an app that you download but There is a moment, a real world's real life moment where somebody has to go and pick up the car. And I think earlier I was talking about those, creating those tertiary experiences or those brand moments or those things that would lead you to wanna talk about FlexCar to, to somebody in a way that's authentic.

David: I would say where there's overlap is identifying those opportunities. So for example, we're making little stickers, so when you put the visor down it says you look great today. Just like those kind of like small little details. Yeah. Floor mats for the cars. So we designed a floor mat for the passenger side.

David: It says there's two like footprints and one is like imaginary brake imaginary accelerator. And then a little note like, oh, now is a good time to compliment your driver because the, they'll take you to your favorite drive-through. Something like that. So yeah, I, I think [00:29:00] designing and creating those moments are, was very similar.

David: And I think also I let me walk back. I think where it's most difficult, where food is, feels very, like we, we create this emotional con, there's an emotional connection we have to food and that re that relationship with food is different for everybody. But being able to create a lifestyle content site, our around food.

David: You think about recipes food waste solutions, food stories, producers, growers, there's so much to talk about when we, when I think about cars it's, it forced me to find where we can create the sort of emotional connections. Yeah. And I think we're doing that where we're also creating sort of a content site that's our, that's surprisingly getting traction.

David: But talking about just like random car things or why do my tires de why is the tire pressure lower in winter in those types of things. [00:30:00] Yeah. Yeah I 

Andy: think there's a lot of value in designers who work in a certain industry try their hand or have an opportunity to work in another one.

Andy: So like we I've done Christmas tree lights before packaging for Christmas tree lighting, and it was, and they picked, they wanted to talk to us specifically because they wanted. A more like handmade human feel to the packaging, because originally it was very like cold and mechanical and I and they were like, you've never done electronic packaging, so I think you guys would be good at that.

Andy: And so I think there is something to be said to there's something to be said about gaining experience and really. Building a lot of work within a certain category or industry, but then when you pop out of that and work on something [00:31:00] different, it provides funky results, like what you're doing or good results, like what you're doing.

Andy: You're bringing the learnings from food and beverage, which is very, like you said, human and and like very tactile into this sort of tech space. I, yeah I think it's just gonna produce some really interesting results. 

Kirk: I had an illustration teacher tell me that whoever is good at their craft, no matter the tool they use, it'll still be good.

Kirk: For instance, if you give a painter a bottle of soy sauce and watercolor brush, they'll figure out how to paint something. They're gonna, they're gonna do it. They're gonna figure it out. So like you give a designer That's right. You give a designer a different problem to solve. Cuz that's basically what we are.

Kirk: Like, how do we implement our skills in order to solve the problem, no matter the media? And I think that's, yeah, that's where the jump is initially for us. Even you were mentioning it, David, like I had a jump because I was thinking, I was [00:32:00] working on foods and the product and the service, and now it's just really a service and it's all data.

Kirk: But you figured it out just because you understood the assignment and you understand how to get there and solutions that you've used before. And I think that's the biggest thing is that people need to understand that. When we're designing things, we're not just willy-nilly doing stuff good designers think about all the craft that goes into it and everything that goes into it.

Kirk: From the copywriting, from the colors to the presence, to when it's being used to, when it's being shown to how it's being shown. And that all makes a difference. And I think too it's not forced. And that's the other thing. And people don't understand that either. Like you cannot force good design.

Kirk: It just happens. But there's always a foundation on which one to build because of how solid or how good a designer is. And that's exactly what you've done where you've gone. So it makes sense. It's really cool. 

David: Yeah. It's interesting. Oh, go ahead. [00:33:00] 

Andy: No, I, real quick. I was just gonna say that's when people who like visit our site only see packaging design, they say, oh, can you do websites?

Andy: Can you do a logo? It's you understand design is design. No matter what you're designing. It's still, it still boils down to very foundational principles. And just because you don't see that e example in my work, like that physical example, If you see something you like, then I probably can do what you want me to do.

Andy: Like a website, if you only see packaging, I probably can design a website. There's all sorts of ux, ui and like certain things that are particular to certain projects and different directions, things like that. But really it really boils down to just the principles of design.

Andy: And if you have a handle on that and you're a good designer, you could pretty much do anything. Yeah. Design a chair, design furniture, whatever. Go ahead, David. [00:34:00] 

David: Yeah, it's funny, it's like at the tail end of my career at Imperfect Foods, there was like this jocking between teams and having to defend the work.

David: And it was really what you just said, all of what you just said. There, there were questions coming to me from the executive director of the board I don't understand. What your creative and design team is doing when we have our product, ux, UI team what's the difference? Why do we have these two creative teams?

David: And it's go to our website and all of the, everything on that website, my team created all of the photography, all of the packaging, all of the illustration. The handwriting is like literally I created a typeface that was like my hand, my handwriting. There's literally like no piece of this website that my team didn't produce the assets for.

David: And so that's where there was this kind of like weird disconnect and it's yeah. What you're saying, it's yeah. There's gonna be those[00:35:00] technological sort of nuances in terms of like, where to put the button, what the weight of the stroke is around the cta but when it comes to the creative and the design and the way you're serving up a brand that's all.

David: It's not a separate thing and it shouldn't be. Yeah. Good design goes unnoticed. That's the thing. You were too good at what you did, and you made it too seamless. So it seemed like it was easy. And I think that people, yeah, people, clients especially, who appreciate the talent and time it takes to actually do things of that nature, understand how hard it is, and understand your worth and value.

Kirk: And other people are just like I don't like it, or It doesn't make sense to me. Or, why did you have to do it this way? And it's just, you're met with questions and obstacles because, They can't see the value in the time it takes to make sure that they look good. [00:36:00] It doesn't matter. Like I I don't care how great a product is unless it has like a strong foundation from hundreds of years ago, like a bottle of wine or a beer.

Kirk: There's no way that it's going to last because of aesthetic, and That's just it. Like people will buy it because of how good it is, but then it's the aesthetic. But so our job is to make them appreciate something. And you said something earlier that I loved, add some surprise and delight yeah.

Kirk: Where can you find those areas to add surprise and delight in? Is it in the copy or whatever? And for us, the three of us, I know we all do, we stay current with design. We stay current with what's going on. We make sure that what we're doing is timely. But it's not pandering, it's not being designed for millennials.

Kirk: It's not being designed for a certain sec of people. It's just good design, and that's what this is all about. Like just make [00:37:00] good design. And I think that is the problem with people who are asking for things that don't know what they're asking for and they're assholes. You asked your friend, Hey, how do I want to change?

Kirk: How do I wanna change this room? You can do this. I'm not sure about that. Like, why the fuck did you ask me? I, do you want a solution or you time? Yeah. Do you want a solution? You just want me to listen and you can vent what was, what's the objective here? But. Yeah. I think 

David: to that point too, it's like giving people something they didn't know they wanted, right?

David: The Howard Schulz Starbucks thing, like people didn't know they wanted a $8 oat milk frappuccino, but here we are. Yeah. Here 

Kirk: it is. Here it is. That's so true. I 

David: think there's something else that, something you said that kind of resonated with me and it's conversations I've had with Previous clients too, where it's is the design of this too good for the audience?

David: And [00:38:00] that really pissed me off. And it, to me it smacked almost of like design discrimination. I don't even know if that's a thing. Sure's a thing. 

Andy: Yeah. No, that 

Kirk: makes, it, makes sense. Yeah. Like 

David: I was when I was at the CPG firm one of our clients was a small. Like a dollar store called Threads in the southeast.

David: I think they've since gone bankrupt. But they had a little private label program and we had a little bit more freedom with that client. But when we presented the initial sort of designs, which were of, I would say like the Trader Joe's caliber, they, that was the comment that we got. It's too good.

David: The design is too good for our customers. And it was like, I get that this is more of a rural community, but I'm guessing that the Starbucks that anybody around here would go to is being served up the same creative that they would see on Newbury Street here in Boston. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:39:00] that's the thing, when I was doing wine and I was really into doing different labels and different tiers of a specific brand, every tier had a different look.

Kirk: And the look got more. Upscale, the less it had on it, of course. So it's just a, a nice high end bottle. Maybe the logo's real small, the varietal and vintage, but like for the lower end, it was like all this stuff, it was super cluttered. It was just mint to make it look cheaper.

Kirk: And I don't un, I never understood that. It's like why do you have to make someone feel like they're buying a more expensive or less expensive bottle just. Put out there, if they like it, they'll buy it again and regardless of the price, but it's totally mental. So what they were trying to tell you don't make it look too expensive.

Kirk: Don't make it dumb it down a little bit. Yeah. And it's just it's sickening because as designers, we're always gonna put our [00:40:00] best foot forward. We're always gonna do what we think is best for our brand. After knowing all the details, ands and outs, and doing broad searches and on other products and competitors and what's happening now, what's happened before.

Kirk: It's just, there's so much to get into for that, and it is a bit hurtful and melancholy to hear someone tell you that your work's too nice. It's like being. Overqualified for a job. Yeah. I think it also presupposes that somebody can't decode or understand the design. Yes. Yeah. I think that's, to me, that is the rub.

Kirk: Yeah, exactly. 

Andy: And that, and it, and that you've assigned a certain design style to a certain community. So it's oh this particular community only this look, which is cheapened and gaudy and garish, or whatever it is. This community responds to that particular look, [00:41:00] so that's how we're gonna design it.

Andy: Yep. Exactly. Yeah. It's this assumption that they that, that community can't handle a different, more sophisticated Yeah. Look. Yeah. It's th this is interesting, David. It's got my wheels turning around like I know about other topics for a podcast. Listen, it's I think there's a.

Andy: Yeah, there's a ton of this happening specifically probably in especially in food and beverage for sure. Yeah. 

Kirk: It's gone by so quickly. Like this almost hour has gone by just the flash. What, yeah, exactly. So we're definitely have to have you back on. We Kirk, 

Andy: I wanna, I want to ask 

Kirk: you, have you have literally two minutes last 

Andy: question.

Andy: I know. This is the last one. So when I met David, we were both entrenched in-house at a grocery store. It was the heyday of in-house [00:42:00] creatives. Everybody was focused on us. They were doing conferences. What has changed since then, from your pers, because you kept working in-house for the most part.

Andy: I left and started Buttermilk Creative. But you've you've been in and out, but what have you noticed differences from that sort of heyday to now? Within in-house creative leadership and teams 

David: and work?

David: That's a great question. I'm struggling with it a little bit. I don't see as many I don't really see the, in terms of like building out a creative team I don't know that much has changed. I do notice that it seems the pool of candidates. That are out there feels. Much more strongly inclined to be part of an in-house team versus an agency.

David: I'm honestly f floored that agencies are still even a thing. Yeah. There's a time and [00:43:00] place for it, and we augment as we need to for certain pieces of content if our team can't pick it up, but for the most part I always if we, if a project is surfaced Hey, we wanna do a 32nd TV spot with Marcus Smart of the Boston Celtics, should we hire somebody?

David: I'm like, no. Hell no. I wanna do it. I want my team to do it. Yeah. And so I'm very unlucky also that the senior leadership where I work, there's an enormous amount of implicit trust and they kinda just let me, let the freak flag fly. And we get to just Show what we can do, and so we keep proving ourselves.

David: Over and over that, that there's nothing that really we can't do. So I don't know that I've noticed anything that's shifted in terms of what an in-house team looks like back then versus now. There are some things that I definitely took from Trader Joe's and the in-house team I was part of, and one of those things.[00:44:00] 

David: And something that's really important to me, and I would stress to anybody listening to this, is I make sure that every single person on my team has a seat at the table and is empowered to be part of the conversation that every everybody can have a great idea and can own a project sort of end to end.

David: And that was very much the ethos at Trader Joe's was being able to. Own your thing and take it to completion. And so I try to eliminate like that piece of some in-house teams where you have these different levels of art hierarchy of creative director, art director, senior designer and things trickle down that way. But I try and keep things pretty linear, so that's what I got. Yeah, that 

Andy: level of ownership is important and it makes people feel or not feel they, they are. Part of the team and you're contributing a good portion of it to, to to the overall work that you're producing.

Andy: That's awesome. [00:45:00] 

Kirk: So it's so odd that word trust, like it's so odd Yeah. To hear people trust you and look, you trust someone and you get some pretty amazing results by someone who knows what the fuck they're doing. It's weird. It is so weird. But David, dude, I cannot thank you enough for coming on. It was truly amazing.

Kirk: Yeah. We'll have feedback. Basically all this was an origin story because there's just so much we did not get into we didn't get into your process or anything like that. So this is so much more to talk about the next time we've planned it. So let's plan on Yes, I can here, how about May 20, 27?

Kirk: We'll set 

David: that time. 

Andy: Now. We'll recon, we'll reconvene. Let's do it. 

David: Reconvene. We're all here. Let's, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be completely honest with you guys, like we're, you're like. Discovering that I've done a lot of different things and then all over the place professionally, personally and I'm in a valley right now.

David: I'm really in 2027. [00:46:00] That's the thing. I'm just like marking in my brain because Okay. I dunno. I'm like, what is my next thing gonna be Like? What is it? Yeah. No idea. What will we be talking about? Then 

Kirk: by that time you'll be like, secretary Press of four eight for design affairs and you'll make up some new positions that I'm Mars takes care.

Kirk: Yeah. It's gonna be something like that, but we'll figure it out. Yeah. 

David: Thank you so much for having me. It's been great. Yeah. 

Andy: We're gonna, we're gonna say a 

Kirk: quick bye but if you can hold on for a second, we can say bye properly. So just hold on for a little bit. I'm Kirk Vais Soul, the founder, creative director of mine, the font, and I'm here with my good friend, 

Andy: Andy Kurtz, founder and creative director of Buttermilk 

Kirk: Creative, and you just listened to the Kirk and Curse Design podcast with are very special guest.

Kirk: David Zeer Vole. Is that right? Did I say it right? Yep. Nailed it. My d and we'll talk to you next time. Peace. 

David: Bye. All right, 

Kirk: thanks David. That was awesome, man. 

Andy: That was so cool. [00:47:00] Yeah. Thank you so much. I hadn't realized, I hadn't realized 

Kirk: you lived so many glasses before.

Kirk: Thank you so much for tuning in to the Kirk and Curse Design podcast. A very special thanks to our guest, David Siegler vo. You can find out more about David and the podcast description. Peace.