Michael Wilson - Owner & Creative Director, Coppergate Design Company & Hazard's Hop Water

Michael Wilson of Copper Gate Design Company is back on the show, and this one's a masterclass in the business side of running a design studio. Kirk and Andy get Michael talking about why he puts his pricing right out in the open on his site, how to actually get comfortable charging what you're worth, and why the client who talks you down on price is almost always the one who brings 80% of the headaches.

Michael also opens up about his own hop water brand, Hazard's Hop Water, and the humbling lesson of not following his own advice — how niching too hard on the golf community nearly sank it, and what changed the moment they broadened the story to who they actually are. Plus the All the Bitter rebrand, and the counterintuitive call to pull "functional" off the front of the pack even though it was true.

In this episode:

• Why transparent pricing makes the money conversation easier (and keeps you honest)
• Fitting the scope to the client's budget — not shrinking your price to fit them
• Hunter vs. gatherer: two very different ways to win new work
• The "second lap" — ship it, get real market feedback, then redesign for what you learned
• Why your packaging will change in the first 3–5 years, and that's the point
• Don't chase the shiny object — anchor back to the strategy doc

Hosted by Kirk Visola (Mind the Font) and Andy Kurtts (Buttermilk Creative).

Transcript

Kirk 0:10

Kirken Kurtz 105. The return of Copper Gate Design.

Speaker 2 0:15

So yeah, I could hit on hit on some maybe you weave that in with uh but yeah, it would be I love that Kirk like sort of working in some videos and actual um yeah like lemon day something.

Speaker 3 0:30

Yeah they've got some new ones up and I'm working on the site right now, so there's a lot of stuff fresh in my mind with those with those projects. So happy to see you.

Speaker 1 0:36

Great. Okay, cool. Okay, yes, it's gonna be fun. Um who am I?

Speaker 2 0:45

Kirk.

Speaker 1 0:46

Oh yes. Hi. I'm Kirk Feisel, I'm the founder and creative director of Mind the Font, and I'm here with my good friend Andy Kurtz, found and creative director of Buttermilk Creative. And this is the Kirk and Curse Design podcast. Alright, hey, so uh other agencies are like we're a multi-functional team of dreamers and storytellers who create unique grand experiences, blah, blah, blah. But Michael is just obsessed with packaging design with zero bullshit, no jargon, no design speak that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. Just killer designs based upon what works best for you because you need killer packaging for your business to succeed. And at the end of the day, all he wants to do is make your labels, boxes, website, etc. look as cool as humanly possible. Michael understands that CPG businesses can be complicated and overwhelming. His own brand, Hazards Hot Water, shameless plug, is his second favorite son, as he also knows it as. And it's a secret weapon for it, secret weapon for empathizing with clients. If you want to cut through the crap and get shit done, hire Michael Wilson. Let's do this! Please welcome to the show. Back the one the only, yes, back to the show. The one, the only founder, owner, head guru of Copper Gate Design Company, Michael Wilson.

Speaker 3 2:08

Hey, that was awesome. Thank you guys. I appreciate that. Well shit.

Speaker 1 2:12

I I hope you thought it was awesome because it was your words.

Speaker 3 2:15

It sounds good when it's read out loud. I've I tell that. It sounds good. So okay, that words. It's um yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 2:21

I always read read stuff out loud, make sure it makes sense.

Speaker 1 2:24

Yeah, but I I love it. I love um just in general, when people put on when they write stuff down, they put like sh asterisk T. Like it's so nice because you're saying it, but you're not saying it.

Speaker 3 2:37

So I have to I have to edit that for Instagram and some other places sometimes. But I don't mean I sometimes forget, and I'm probably getting shadow banned in some places because I do I'm I'm from the northeast, man, and I went to school in Philly. You're crusty. I curse, I'm sorry. Dude, don't be sorry. Yeah, it's I use it as exclamation points. It is just uh yeah, but I think no man, it's good.

Speaker 2 3:06

And I could any you know, I was just gonna say, if you spend any time in Philly, I think it's sort of like a quota that you have to meet every day. Like you have to you have to drop a certain amount of F bombs and just you know, just uh true.

Speaker 3 3:21

Don't say if you'll drop a dozen F bombs in uh before coffee, they'll take all of our Eagles gear away from you. Yeah, it's done. Yeah.

Speaker 1 3:33

I I seriously and I I hope Andy doesn't have me saying this, but Arlo, Andy's oldest, I was listening to this show. Anything he told Andy one day, he was like, I'd love to hear Kirk cussed. It's great.

Speaker 3 3:47

Now that I know there's children listening, I will keep the F bombs to what is it like the Marvel Universe limit is what three or something? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 3:57

For PG 13. He's 13 now. He can he can he's he's uh unvarnished, he can listen to the he's he's able to listen to all the cursing rap lyrics and we uncheck the explicit on his um Apple um stuff, so now he can subscribe to our podcasts like everyone else should and and listen.

Speaker 1 4:17

But you can now listen to Uncle Kirk custom really, yeah. So I think that's that's perfect. No, um it's and that but I talk that way, but I talk this way all the time. Like with kids around anything, I will say like fuck shit, you know. It's like because that's how I talk. I think what people don't realize is that your your words, your your vernacular, your dialect does not always have to tie with a quote unquote bad word to mean a bad thing, it's just part of the lexicon, like part of your talking. So if I were to say, like, oh my god, it's fucking awesome, that's opposed to me saying, like, oh fuck that guy, or he's a fucking piece of shit, like that's totally different, right? Yeah, yeah. So using it in your common day speak and and the the Philadelphians know how to uh mix both very well, where it's either talking shit or just talking shit about somebody, it's it's it's totally in requirement, but so yeah.

Speaker 3 5:08

It's just built in, man. It's just built in. I've tried DNA. I've tried to shake it now that I live in the south. I've tried to shake it. I just can't. Um I just can't. I'm ri I'm 43, it's really hard to change. No, right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 5:25

In the margins, yeah. It won't it won't change as you get older, you'll just start giving less of a fuck as you get older. That's right. But yeah, so so yeah, man, uh, thank you so much for coming back on the show. And we had talked earlier, and you guys will hear this in the bonus content about some packaging that's out there right now. But Michael, you've done a couple of projects with Copper Gate, and we're gonna talk about those, and also we're gonna talk about pricing and how you have pricing on your website. And I I was told by someone a while ago that when you're talking to a client or trying to get a new client, just be right up front with it. Like, what's your budget? How much time you're gonna spend? Because you don't want to sit there spending time and trying to trying to get things done, and then you tell them a price, like, oh, that's too much for me. So after people see your price and they come to you, how big of a hurdle is that for like, oh shit, well, that's out of the way. Let's talk about how I can help your business.

Speaker 3 6:14

Um, it's interesting. I mean, a lot of the clients that come to me, I think some of them haven't gotten that place on the website. They come through referrals a lot of times. Okay. So, you know, I have it up there for there for people who find me organically or find me through stuff I'm posting on LinkedIn. Um, but for referral clients, I still have to kind of, you know, pitch the budget for different different sort of project tiers.

unknown 6:38

Yeah.

Speaker 3 6:38

And I've brought I've broken things out into basically two tiers. There's like the brand sprint, which a lot of people are doing now because times are tough and everyone's looking for an economic solution. Um but so that's kind of the lower price one, but you don't get to dive as deep on the projects. And then there's another tier that's around like 25 to 35k for a more in-depth brand launch or a brand refresh. Um and I just put that stuff out there because it helps me talk about the budget of stuff as designers. We know we didn't go to business school, so having to learn the business side of running an agency is really hard. Getting comfortable talking about money and charging what your worth is really difficult for designers. So putting it out on my site was just a way for me to break the ice and like make myself more confident talking about the numbers. And after doing it for, I don't know, seven or eight years now and having those numbers up there, it just it just makes you a lot more comfortable having that conversation. Um but I put that stuff up there too because it's really just me. And I hire freelancers to help out on projects, but I position myself um and and ear probably kind of like this too. And like I'm not a huge agency. I'm one person who's gonna be completely dedicated to your project. Right. It's gonna take a lot of my time and energy and expertise, and that's what you're paying for. You're not paying for free coffee for some interns or for HR department or big big everhead. Uh yeah, like there's no account exec, there's no salesperson, there's maybe a junior designer helping out on some stuff here and there. Um, but for the most part, it's me. And that's the the transparent part of it is is um it's big agency experience and ideas and strategy without the big agency price. And to prove that, here are my prices. And you've probably if you've talked if you've talked to big agencies, they are cheaper than the big agencies. So yeah, it's it's a way to be competitive and just keep myself honest with it too, and just say, I don't need to charge, you know, six figures for a project, I don't, I don't need to do that. Yeah, and I can still give you everything I got. So yeah, I don't know. It just made it easier for me to talk about it in the long run.

Speaker 1 8:57

Yeah, yeah, and that's I think that's that's really cool too, because you mentioned something that's very important. Two things. One, charge what you're worth. And I don't think people understand that. Most of the stuff that you are paying for with a large design agency, you're paying for the idea of having everything that you need. So the idea of having a brand strategist, the idea of having um a person that coordinates and pro the project, the person that does all this stuff, it's like that can be done by smaller agencies, and you're spending literally like a fifth or sixth of the cost, right? Um when you hear about logos that are done on massive levels, like the Bobas Redmill logo, I'm gonna say uh branding, probably costs at least half a million dollars, right?

Speaker 3 9:41

Yeah, was that in I don't know, is it Interact or who?

Speaker 1 9:43

Jack I don't know if it was someone, yeah, yeah, whoever it was, it's at least half a million dollars. Like that's that sounds rather high, but you think about all the things you have to pay for, you have to pay for the overhead, you have to pay for the the trips, you have to pay for the the all the bullshit and strategy and everything else that goes into it, but you can get uh really good work, excellent work, work that could be on par with those larger agencies from smaller agencies like like yours or Andy's, right? Like, I don't I don't care about people, so my agency only works with people that I like. Um, I'm kidding, not kidding, but no, it's like you and and so when you give person a a a cost or an item or a number, they're like, Oh, that's high. It's like, well, you've seen my work, my work is really good, and you're paying a fraction of that. You'll see something from Turner Duckworth or wherever, and like, oh wow, that's really good. And it's like, well, yeah, that's stuff that I do, like I can do that. I have the confidence to say that I'm really fucking good at this, and you're gonna pay for it. So uh getting over that hurdle is so important. I'm so glad you mentioned it. The other the other thing that you mentioned too was the uh the organic way of of getting there for someone, or as opposed to word of mouth consultant or referral. And I swear, like I don't advertise that much, uh but uh one thing I heard on this uh at this thing I went to was just vibe with people. Like if you like someone or someone like you, or if you're just friends or be friends, be friendly with people, man. People like that. And me, my way of being friendly is I give people shit, like I will give people shit all the time. If if I'm being overly nice to you, it probably means I don't fuck with you. Like it's just that's just how you're doing it about it. Yeah, so it's like I'm gonna if I say so, I'm gonna give them a hard time. Like, I'm gonna like mess with them or whatever, but I'll vibe with them, and like that's that's my that's my love language. Okay, and I cannot tell you how many times that people have come to you or come to me as a referral and and from someone that they heard about. Do you feel that you get a lot more referrals than people who come to you organically? Like, because I feel that's the way, because I haven't been really advertising a ton or anything like that. Yeah, I've seen you've gotten out there a little bit more, but for the most part, it's just been like a little bit here and there.

Speaker 3 12:05

Yeah, it's been referrals and sort of networking and just sort of chatting with folks. Like when I redid all the bitter um last year and into this year, I'd spoken to Ian and Carly very early on when I sort of was looking at the non-alcoholic beverage space as a place I wanted to focus. And I'd called them just to kind of get a sense of what's the industry like, what's going on in the space, what are the trends where everything, where's everything going? What can I learn so that I can better serve that um that vertical and people in that space and understand it better? So it was really of like an information gathering mission to talk to Car Ian and Carly, and we got along great, and they're super generous with their time. Anyone who knows them, they're one of those like um hubs where every spoke in the non-alcoholic space is somehow connected to Ian and Carly Blemsing and all the bitter, they're they're awesome. And then we just sort of stayed in touch and we comment on each other's stuff and you know, follow along as things were growing. And then when it came time for redesign, um we were we were there and ready to do it. Yeah, so it was this relationship that was nurtured over a couple of years with no expectations of work coming out of it. I just really liked them. And yeah, they decided to to give me a call to do the rebrand, and it was a big project, one of my ones the most proud of. Nine SKUs, three shapes, boxes, all sorts of collateral merch, everything. Um massive, massive projects and super fun, and you know, great clients. We had a we already had a good relationship, so discussing things they liked and didn't like was really easy because we we could already talk. Um so yeah, you just kind of build those relationships. You don't know when they're gonna turn in to possibly work, or possibly them referring you to somebody else. Uh the organic stuff, it helps like writing on LinkedIn and kind of being there pretty regularly. Yeah. Just to I've had a couple of people come knocking because of that stuff. It's not quite as consistent as you'd want it to be. Um, I think that's the problem every design agency is trying to solve is sort of the lead generation thing. I talked to Gabe Mitchell um a while back about just the business of design, and he was like, you can be a hunter or you can sort of be a gatherer. And a hunter, you cold call and you pulled email and you're knocking on doors, and you're really I want this client to keep bothering them until I get them, right? And then there's the gatherers who just kind of put stuff out there and wait things, wait for things to come their way. Yeah. And I've fallen much more into that second camp. Um, but I never heard anyone describe it like that. Yeah, it really clicked with me that I go hunting occasionally, I'll call brands that I want to work with occasionally, but for the most part, I'm putting stuff out there and trying to connect with people and know as many folks in the industry as I can to let people know that I'm here, I'm available, and this is what I do. Um that's awesome.

Speaker 1 15:04

One thing I wouldn't keep keep your thought, Andy. I wouldn't trust Gage. That's all I'm saying. I wouldn't trust that motherfucker. No, I'm kidding.

Speaker 3 15:13

I I've I was able to speak with him, Matt Tanaka, and Fred Hart in like the last month, and I was just boying it out super hard on all this. Yeah, that's a plethora. That's a plethora of knowledge. So lucky that they just mind blown.

Speaker 1 15:25

They're always and yeah, and yeah, Andy just also too before you please hold your thumb. Sorry, one more thing. If if people, if you're ever if you're listening to this and you're worried about any type of design or anything, ask somebody, ask a designer. Every single designer that I've talked to, like no matter who it was, if I've gotten through to them, they always get back to me. Every single one. That's like from Chris Doe to James Barnard. It's like like to Andy Kurtz, right? If I ever talk to them, they get back to me. And Andy Kurtz is the hard one. That's the hard one to get back to. But he's a busy man. Yeah, so ask your question. So, anyway, we're gonna say, man, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 16:00

Oh, okay, let me lower my hand. Um thank you, Kirk. Um, well, I was just gonna uh add that you're that like normally, you know, if you're doing it right, it will it does take about two years, it takes a while to really nurture a relationship. And yeah, what you described as like the the perfect thing, you know, like you just reached out to them, it was it was uh you know mutual, you were just learning, and then because when it was time, you were top of mind, and they you know, and so like that's that's that's something every designer should learn, especially youngish designers. Um not that I you know you necessarily hear about like youngish designers like like you said, like doing like cold calls and sales and stuff like that. I just don't know what what they do because you know, our the way I'm sure your process has evolved since you started Coppergate till now, just like Kirk's just like mine. Um, but yeah, I love that you described that. I mean, there's some folks that we've talked to for five years. Our business coach, I I work, I I she was um she was she came and spoke to our local AI G A chapter well before I started buttermilk. I was still at the fresh market. I picked her up from the airport in my truck, and I was so like self-conscious about it because it's like a manual, and you know, like she's like she's like it's Emily Cohen, like she's this she speaks at the house stage, and you know, whatever, whatever. And um, of course, she was very down to earth, and like that planted the seed, you know, just our sort of conversation driving to the venue to me to finally like eight years later, something ridiculous, 10 years later, to finally hire her. And she was like, There you go, that's it. That's that's my and it and it just it's that long, you know. You really have to be patient with it. Um, sometimes it happens quick, but um, but I love that, and I love your your pricing thing because yeah, it is yeah, I don't know. I mean, there are unique individuals out there that have no problem talking about money and pricing and stuff, and maybe that'll change generationally, but I'm I'm your age too, and like I it is so hard in designers in layer designer creative on top of that, it's so hard to talk money with people, and yeah, that is definitely something that I've tried to set my mind right with. And I I definitely like now it's just like here it is, you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Oh well, it's not my problem, you know, sure, you know. So I don't serve it up that way, but that's that's my mind.

Speaker 3 18:49

Yeah, I mean it's it's um we if you can't talk about money, you can't grow your business. It just you have to be comfortable with it. I had a project we all need it, and we and it's like but it makes it so icky. But there was there was a project that came through, and I put a proposal out, and I just you know, you kind of get a sense of like where their margins are, where their revenue is. This might be this might be out of their out of their ballpark right now, but I'm like, I'm not gonna change my pricing because I really want this client.

Speaker 4 19:22

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 19:23

I'm gonna put it out there and see what happens. I need to start the conversation here. And sometimes we'll say, you know, we need to go officiate down or rechange them a little bit, whatever. Uh but it's like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that off out of the out of the gate, right? I'm gonna start with my number for what the project is for the scope that they fit most closely into. And then if they are like, well, we can't afford that, we maybe we change the scope. Can we do something if we do a little bit less stuff and like kind of do X, Y, and Z? It's like okay, then we can do a custom proposal. We can we can find something that works for everybody so everyone's happy. But I don't I used to just go, well, I'm gonna gear my proposal, my number based off of what I think they can afford. And I don't do it anymore. I'm like, this is my pricing. Yeah, let's fit the scope to what you can afford, right? I'm not gonna fit my privacy to what I think you can pay. I we can fit the project to what my pricing is.

Speaker 2 20:19

How you know how well do you think how I I feel like I'm not very successful at that, and I've stopped doing that because I think that I try to rein in the scope and it then it doesn't. I'm just either not disciplined enough, or I feel like I need to I need to deliver you know something that you know I can't do in one round or whatever you know the the certain restrictions are. Do you do you find are you do you find that those projects are successful where you've limited the scope and you've stuck to it?

Speaker 3 20:52

Yeah or yeah, because this because if it's if it's not one of the higher end stuff, the sprint package is really scoped specifically for that for two to three concepts, three rounds of revisions on the chosen concept, and the deliverables are really slim. It's like your labels, your logo, uh not even a full brand manual, sort of a brand snapshot, and then all of your all of those materials kind of turned over. Um so it does the deliverables get shrunk, right? As opposed to doing 10 pieces of clut out of your sales sheet, doing your Shopify, doing uh all your merch, doing you know whatever else might come along. Um it's just a well, you can't you won't get all that stuff. You can have all of the assets that I use to build your your labels. And if you guys want to go make a sales sheet, go have about it like that. But I'm not, you know, I don't that's how that's outside the scope. Yeah. And I offer myself kind of a la carte. Like you want to do the sprint plus a Shopify build, then we can do that.

Speaker 4 21:49

Yeah.

Speaker 3 21:50

So we can sort of start with the sprint and then tack on the a la carte pieces they need, and then it comes in somewhere between the sprint package and the full foundation package. So there's But there's plenty of room in there to kind of to play around. What what they can afford, how much can you get for the money that you can afford to invest in this project? And I'll give you as much as I possibly can to sort of so you guys have some professional stuff, whatever, whatever those things are, whatever you choose to make, we'll make them.

Speaker 1 22:20

Andy the best way to say this to me is that subjectivity is the problem. And whenever you're doing design or you're creating something, no matter the amount of insight you share, the discoveries you've shared, everything that we do is based on subjectivity, which also means that everything we do, people can scrutinize because they think they know about it because they can see it and like see stuff be done with it. Yeah. So I'm also realizing too, like when you say that you're going to give them a price for something, and then they ask for something else, and they say, Well, how much does it cost just for this? Or how much does it cost? Well, why is it that much? It's like the price is the price.

Speaker 4 22:57

Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:57

And they don't they don't realize, like, we've been doing this for decades. You know what I mean? Like, we have a certain amount of skill that you that is why our price is the price. And and I always noticed, and this is no, this is never happened without this has always happened without fail. Or should say never has happened with fail. However, I want to say it that it always fucking happens. Anytime you anytime you change your price or lower your price, people take advantage. Always take advantage, they're always gonna be over overscrutinized, overscrutinizing your work. So when someone says I can't afford it, okay, yeah, you know what? Save up and maybe next time you can. Here's I mean, how much is that? That's that's uh such a good point.

Speaker 2 23:41

It feels like the clients that go for the and it you you've done a few of these. You tell us, Michael, those clients that do that, are they the pickiest? Are they the most maintenance, you know, high maintenance?

Speaker 3 23:57

Yeah, it's 80-20 rule, right? The people that um are bringing 20% of your income give you 80% of the headaches.

Speaker 4 24:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3 24:04

Um, I think what people misconstrue about the pricing is the pricing is the pricing you're paying for a couple of decades of expertise. I've worked usually the founders I work with, they've this is like sometimes their first time into CTG. Yeah, I've done I when I own my own brand and I've done a couple dozen projects so I can see around corners that they can't see. Right. So you're not paying just for the design expertise. I'm also in this industry. I also own a brand, so I can see things that you might need that you don't know that you need, or I might know the competitive landscape a little bit better because I've been in it. Um and there's just that extra level of eyesight and sort of creative partnership that comes along with it. Um and there's just that built and that that kind of leads into the built-in strategy. It's like I can help you strategize because I've had to do it myself, and yeah, I can help you go in a different direction that everyone instead of following the pack, right? Yeah, exactly. So it's not even just like paying for the years of expertise, it is illuminating things that and and shining a light in their blind spots. And I don't know. Yeah, the expert hard to buy.

Speaker 1 25:16

Yeah, the expertise gives you that ability to do that, right? Like to be able to see those blind spots. So it is and it isn't about the expertise because uh it's not just about design expertise, it's about the entire process. And I don't think people understand that that you know there's a certain size that that your NLEAs have to be, there's a certain size that a surgeon general warning has to be, there's certain things that you have to do, and certain parameters that need to be taken in order to make sure you can't have these claims on your illegally from a legal standpoint. All those different things have to be really taken into account. And one of the things you mentioned just now, too, was great was the fact that you have your own brand, Hazard Hop Water. And I and recently you posted on um, and we already touched on this, but I just want to talk about your your hop water. Um, what what prompted the redesign for you from going to what you initially had done to moving forward with a bit more of a heavier, hefty, colored, bright poppy can?

Speaker 3 26:11

Um well, I own a branding agency and I started my own brand and I didn't follow my own advice. So I didn't do the foundational strategy work. I just doped in, like, I know how to do this, this will be no problem. This will be fun. And we started off making something specifically for the golf community um because I want we wanted to pick a niche, something we were all kind of interested in.

Speaker 26:36

Yeah.

Speaker 3 26:36

And didn't really properly research the golf industry and what it would take to create a beverage to break into that space. Um, we just figured, you know, pick a niche and go hard at it, uh and it'll break through. And we found out the hard way that the golf community is a couple years behind the non-alcoholic trend writ large. Uh, golf clubs aren't particularly interested in non-alcoholic beverages and picking them up and carrying them, so selling wholesale was difficult. There is a lot of noise in the golf community, so it's hard to break through and be found and picked up. We were gearing towards guys who don't really shop online, selling beverages online in general kind of is a bit of a disaster. It's really difficult. So we just we ran into all of these roadblocks, and eventually I was fighting tooth and nail. I said, We have we have to keep trying, we have to keep trying. Like, just stick to it, stick to it, stick to it, stick to organs for three years. And then my co-founder finally convinced me, he's like, it's too niche, man. Like, yeah, so I was like, all right, if we're gonna do a rebrand, let's go through the rebrand process. I called our customers, I called our best wholesale, like talked to them directly, and I said, Do people care about the golf thing? And the customers were like, No, not really. And the retailers were like, they're like, I don't think anyone even notices. And I was literally in a shop in my town with a uh sample pack, and I dropped it off. They're like, Well, we don't know if people are gonna buy this because it's like a golf thing and this isn't like a golf store. And I was like, So it's the golf thing is actually prohibiting people from buying us. I don't know how many people have passed on us on fair and ergment, I have no idea because you just don't have that information. But I heard from at least one person that Nat was a roadblock to him buying a case to spell in his shop, and the people who were buying us didn't care. Yeah, so we went, Oh, we can just ditch the golfing.

Speaker 2 28:40

Like fascinating. It's fun.

Speaker 3 28:41

Like, we can still we can still talk about golf, and it's part of our life, and it's a part of our story, so we can still bring it up, but we can kind of come up one level in the um seven levels of niching if you fell, and um just go go more broad and talk about stuff we actually care about and kind of uh you know, I like punk rock music and I grew up skateboarding, and now I'm a dad, and I coach soccer, and I've got like a you know a golf cart in the garage and I mow my lawn and like I don't really skate anymore, but I still listen to the same music I did when I was 18. I'm just sort of like this millennial midlife crisis former punk retired mosh pit guy. Yes, I'm like that's more our brand anyway. Like, that's who we are anyway. Yeah, and as soon as we did that, the second we did that, everything started working better. Our Instagram learning is going up, all of our posts are performing better.

Speaker 2 29:32

That's so cool.

Speaker 3 29:33

The new cans when they come out, it's like we can market them to anyone, anywhere, because they're more broadly appealing. Yeah, yeah, and we are moving away from a beer alternative on the golf course to a soda alternative all day for anybody. So we're we had to like turn the ship and we learned the lessons all the hard way. Man, and I spin that back into Coppergate stuff to say when I talk to my clients, I'm like, I've made all the mistakes. Yeah, don't make these mistakes. I learned these the hard way. You can't go around the three-tier system, you have to price accordingly, shipping's a pain in the butt, unboxing, all that stuff. We can make all that stuff happen. But when you're talking about your specific audience of what you're gonna how you're gonna sell this thing and how you're gonna market it, you know, you it's gotta be specific yet broad. And that is a new thing I've had to learn that I think is really, really valuable. Because I'm not a marketing person, I'm a brand designer, but I you have to think about the marketing side of it at the same time.

Speaker 1 30:40

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 30:42

It was a great, really hard lesson to learn, and one I kind of proudly wear around like as an egg on my faith. Like, look, I made all the mistakes. Look, I screwed this up pretty bad. I do this professionally, and even I do this professionally, and I screwed this up.

Speaker 4 30:55

Yeah.

Speaker 3 30:57

Don't don't do that. Like, I I've kind of martyred myself a little bit with that.

Speaker 1 31:02

No, that's great. That's great. I think it's it's also good too to tell people that you don't have all the answers. And I'm saying that because you have to be able to discover what each brand needs. Every single brand is different. Okay, you can go through the same processes, you can go through all that stuff, but every single one's different. It's like, how many children do you have, Mike? Just one. Okay, you'll have one. Okay. So if you have more than one, Andy knows this, they're all different, and you can't, even if you treat a child one way and the other child the same way, they're gonna be totally different because every person's different, just like every project you do is different. And I I love my a phrase my by you jumping right in, you jumped right into something, you did it because hey, I've done this before, boom, we're doing it, but you didn't take the time to do it right. And my dad had a phrase I loved him when he said it there's never time to do it right, but always time to do it twice. That's so good, right? So, yeah, that's great. If something's fucked up, it's like, oh, I didn't do it right. Well, take it all out and do it again. Had you done it right the first time, it would have been fine. So you had but you you had to learn that, and by learning that it taught you, like, okay, I have to start following my own advice, blah blah blah. Um I think that's amazing.

Speaker 3 32:16

Yeah, it actually goes back to one of the points we're talking about earlier about the pricing. Um the sprint package that I have developed in the pricing is for to do it like this like we'll get you something that looks professional, trustworthy, and sellable, but not perfect and not 100% there. We'll get 80, 90, 90 there. Um you're you can sit around and unless you've founded multiple CPG brands, you don't really know if your product's gonna work, and you don't really know what your audience is, and you can theorize it and conceptualize it all day long until you start selling. You do not know. Yeah, so the best thing you can do is instead of spending half a million dollars on a branding project, spend less, get into the market, make sure it works, come back for a second round, we'll fix what doesn't work. So the sprints, the sprint is $7,500, and I've I've decided to add on something called the second lap. So you start with the sprint, you get into the market, you sell, you sell through your first run, your pilot run for an extra 2,500 bucks, come back, I'll redo all of your labels based on what you've learned from the market. So for 10 grand, you get two rounds, yeah, and it's based on real-world feedback. It's probably a small amount, it's a pilot run, but you get two, you get two at bats. That's cheap. That way you and we know, we know we're designing it the second time around, we know what to fix because we know we can talk to customers directly. That's cool, and that's up to the clients to pull that information. I won't do the customer research on that stuff because it's very time consuming. But I'm like, here are the questions you can ask. Yeah, go gather this data for me, let's talk about it, and then we can we can design accordingly.

Speaker 4 34:08

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 34:09

So and that's that went out at hazards. We've just I've changed the I've changed our packaging four times in three years. Yeah, and we're in one now that I feel very confident will last the long term. Um but yeah, it took me four four shots in three years. Yeah, so that's part of what I tell my clients like just get out there, unless you've done this before, just get out there.

Speaker 1 34:32

Well, is even if you've even if you've done this before, you there's there's always gonna be trends that are changing, right? So and and there's no other way, no other better way to get trends that are changing than to actually get honest feedback. So by you telling them to go put the product out there, get feedback, and come back to me, that's as good as that shit's gonna get. And you mentioned that you're you're not a marketing person, branding design and it and packaging design itself, it in itself is marketing. The strategy that goes behind it is is also tied into what we do, even though you're not probably doing all of the point of sale from like shelf talkers and flyers and ads and brochures. Um, you're probably not doing all of that. But what you are doing is setting up the actual files and the and the look and feel because you've gotten feedback in order to do it, and so that is the marketing part of it. My my family owns a winery, and it's called Rexfordwinery.com. They make really good wine.

Speaker 35:39

Go to Rexfordwinery.com.

Speaker 2 35:41

This this episode is sponsored. Talking about shameless bobs.

Speaker 35:45

Yeah, this episode is sponsored by Rexford Winery.

Speaker 2 35:47

Um, but I'm still waiting on my case.

Speaker 1 35:50

Dude, uh I'm gonna get you a case just to if they're sponsoring it. I know, I know, right? Uh but like it's it's frustrating because everything I tell them, like, you should try this, you should try this. Oh no, that doesn't work. It's like, okay, first of all, I was from the time I was 15 to I was about 23 I did sales for gala winery, and during that time, I learned about how to sell to people, how to market, how to merchandise, all that stuff, and I saw how it worked in the wine field. And with wine, there's not a lot of stuff that's changed. The only thing that's changed is that people aren't buying as much alcohol nowadays, like that's one of the things. So every time I suggest something, it's like, oh, that doesn't work because it didn't work before. And so it's not only having the knowledge about doing the actual changes to your product to make it better, but allowing them to happen. So you actually are telling them this needs to happen, and the client is allowing it for it to happen, which helps the product, and I think that's just brilliant. Like that whole go out and test it and come back to me.

Speaker 3 36:55

It's just yeah, it's nothing better, nothing better than rule, real real world feedback from actual customers.

Speaker 2 37:00

You just can't can't be when that's that's usually, and I'm with respect to your your uh family kirk, um, that's that's usually a sign of a good founder is someone who is who will receive that feedback, and then for the good of the product and the brand, we'll make those changes and like you know, take that feedback and and um react to it versus ones that are like nope, I know what it is, I know how to do it, and the the the customer's wrong or like the buyer's wrong, they don't just don't understand it. And it's like good luck, you know, because there's just yeah, you can sort of tell when you have conversations with certain founders, it's like they're either gonna make it or they're not because of how receptive they are or how um how open-minded they are, yeah, which helps you in life in general, but also specifically when you're when you're launching a product or have launched a product and trying to make it successful. Yeah, you're always learning.

Speaker 3 38:04

That was a big part of the all the bitter redesign, right? We did a bunch of customer research, and Ian Carly really wanted to put the fact that these were functional bitters in in the forefront because all bitters are functional, all bitters help with digestion, all bitters help with gut health. There's particularly because of the ingredients they use. And we talked to customers, and no one knew. No one knew that this was like good for gut health, and that by having you know bitters and soda every night as a daily ritual, which is what most of their customers do, they're actually improving their gut health. So we're like, oh cool, we'll call it functional bitters. And we started going down that route, and as we thought about it, I think Ian was the first person to go, you know, no one knows, and we're doing fine. Yeah. So why are we gonna try and put that forward? Because we we know it and we're excited about it, right? No, I think people like this because the flavors are excellent, it's non-alcoholic completely, zero percent, where most bitters have alcohol. Yeah, and we make all these by hand. This is a craft product, so it became craft cocktail bitters and not functional. We just took it off completely. Like, we're just competing with all the other bitters. Yeah, we just happen to be non-alcoholic and we happen to taste better and we happen to have way more flavors. So, again, super smart founder, right? Listen to what read between the lines of what people were telling us. Yeah, and he's like, you know what? If we're improving people's gut health and they don't know it, great. Yeah, and when people find out, then all the bit of great. That's the thing.

Speaker 2 39:43

Yeah, and it's it's also uh you know, he understood his his core customer, you know, and like he wasn't searching for that person that was seeking out functional messaging. He knew that their customer appreciated them for those qualities. He just needed to probably adjust hierarchy and you know, do all the prioritizations.

Speaker 3 40:04

It didn't have that on the front. There was too much information on the front. Yeah, it needed to grow up and mature a little bit, and the illustrations needed to be much more in depth and to kind of represent the flavors better. So there wasn't a lot of stuff visually that we needed to do to have the brand mature to match where they were as a business, and then a lot of the stuff we kept that was you know hearkened back to us to the the old packaging. It did pretty massive. We changed the logo, did a lot of changes, but I think people still recognized it. So it was one of those ones that kind of like Bob's Redmill where it towed the line, but we changed a lot because of their brand equity, and with that amount of brand equity and how long they've been in business and how beloved they are by their core customers, you can really only push it so far. And it's like, well, you know you need to grow up, but it's not exactly broken. So let's like we're we're kind of repainting a few rooms here, we're not doing a full reno, uh right, and you know, we found we found the right balance. And he said that he was like, when when that rebrand came out, I called him and was like, How's it performing? I know people are excited about it. You see all these nice comments online, but like is it selling? He's like, Oh, we have retailers who like had bought like one or two different flavors who all bought the entire line because they want all the packages and you want to see them all lined up together because they're so beautiful. And I was like, such good idea. That's music to my ears, man. Like if the the the the highest praise I can have for any project, you could give me all like the I can get a golden pencil, I could get all the die line awards. If my customer doubles their doubles their sales gear, that's the only trophy he can. Yeah, I don't care about anything else. Yeah, yeah. So it's all about that performance. That performance is usually based in the core strategy and listening to the customers and where it needs to go. So that's the customers. Yeah, and it's as designers, you guys know this the best work comes with constraints. And yeah, if you have a constraint that customer, you know, it needs to be this particular thing because these are what uh this is what our customers like, and we need to thread a needle here, yeah. Um, then that's the needle we thread. It could be color, it could be we have one typeface we use, whatever. But if it's a constraint of you know, we really want it to be functional bidders, but no one really thinks about us like that. So it's craft cocktail bidders, and we just need to compete on that front. There's a constraint you need to work around. And yeah, yeah, the best work comes out of those constraints anyway. So I look forward to those, you know, especially those market-based ones.

Speaker 1 42:37

So yeah, yeah, yeah, and and yeah, and and the um the nice aha moment is when people do realize that they're functional. Like the it's like the arrow in the FedEx logo, right? Yeah, like, oh wow, I didn't see that. It's like the nice takeaway, even though that's not why you buy it or use the product, it's just because it's just like another added thing to a product that you love, so it makes it even better.

Speaker 3 42:58

Yeah, it might be something they can talk about in their marketing, you know, it might be something they can talk about on a social media post, but it's not it's not the number one thing, right? Yes, exactly. But I mean, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 43:11

To your point, uh uh Kirk around subjectivity versus objectivity, that's a great data point to to keep, not as your like North Star, but as a guide post as you guys were redesigning. It's like once not saying they're these founders did this, but you know, you could see a founder sort of meandering. They read a you know, a post on BevNet and they're like, oh, let's let's we're back to functional, let's put functional on the front. And it's like, no, no, no, guys, remember, we know that this is the this is the messaging that we want to put out there, craft. And it's like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, scratch that. Don't don't redesign the front to work functional, you know, and like it's because it's like, I don't know, I just read about this. I've I feel like we need to do this, and it's like, no, no, no, let's look back at the strategy doc. And realign. Yeah. And it's so much harder to just be like, well, no, I'm the designer, and this is what we were designing, and we should keep designing that around that. It's like, well, no, I'm the founder. I want to change it. And it's like, no, stop. Doesn't matter if I'm the designer or you're the founder. This is the guide.

Speaker 3 44:17

That's why that strategy doc, the impression is so critical because it becomes important. We're like, you go back to it and you reference it, like, nope, this is what we set out to do, right? And like we're gonna set out to do this, and we're gonna in certain cases, we can test it and focus group it, and we can ask questions, we can we could get feedback as much as we can, so we don't we can confirm or deny our our thesis here before we start not designing anything. But if we've got confirmation that this is what people like, that we're sticking to it and yes, diverting people from I call it a shiny object syndrome. You know, you start chasing chasing those the shiny object, it happens it all the time. Yeah, yeah. Um you go, don't chase this the shiny object, like be true to who you are, especially if you found that being true to who you are is you have really have your own lane, you will be just fine. Um if you're a copy cab of somebody else, it's not gonna work. Um but with Ian and Carly, they're very unique. You have a really amazing product, they know exactly who they are, they have incredible taste. Um, former Somaliers from French Laundry, like they know beverages, they have incredible flavors, and they are very true to themselves. And that's that that's why they're so successful. They're they that's just the right combination. That's awesome, and uh that's you can't design your way around that, you know. Yeah, I think the founder designer partnership team is super fascinating. Relationship, um, because I can only get people so far, I can't go sell their product for them. Yeah, right. Like I can't, I'm not demoing for you. Like I happen to vouch for every single product I've ever designed. I tell people they'll they they're all very good and amazing, and I I recommend them to people all the time. Um but that founder, you gotta give them something they're confident in. So when they go out and they're selling it, they're they're confident that they've made a lot of the right decisions to get to the table with a buyer and sell their product to whatever market they're they're going into. Yeah. Um, yeah.

Speaker 1 46:21

Well, you know what? I'm coming up on time, and I want to make sure that you have any other last nuggets of wisdom that you want to share, other than don't chase the shiny objects. I like that. Yeah, don't chase the shiny objects at all.

Speaker 3 46:36

Um I don't I don't know. I think it's it really is there's not really nuggets of wisdom. It's it's just every step along the way, especially in the beverage industry, is learning. Um, it's changing so fast. Beverage is so competitive, like one of the most competitive areas of the store. And you don't know until you're out there selling if it's gonna really work or not. Um, if there's anybody who's a founder listening to this, you just understand your packaging is gonna change in the first three or five years, it's ever evolving. Um, if anyone tells you they have all the answers and this is gonna work 100%, they're lying to you. Um it is all just sort of a really good designer will get you very, very close to 100% with great strategy and a good starting point. And then everything is iteration and iteration and iteration to get 1% better and 1% better and 1% better until you have something you can live with for a long stretch of time.

Speaker 1 47:44

Uh yes, and then go to copper gate design to get all that shit done for you. That's all I'm saying. Uh no, my thanks so much, Michael. I really appreciate uh you coming on again, man. It's been so much fun. Yeah, hold on. We're gonna do like the podcast goodbye, and then we're gonna do a road goodbye. So um oh and Andy, do you have anything to say, bud?

Speaker 2 48:05

I I just have a correction I need to make. It was Turner Duckworth that did Bob's red mill, not JKR. They've done everything else. Right. That's my refresh in mind.

Speaker 1 48:15

We'll be sure we'll be sure to put that in the bonus in the bonus part. We'll just throw this little clip in there. Um just uh but no, uh, I am Kirk Vice L I'm the founder and creative director of Mind the Font, and I'm here with my good friend. Andy Kurtz, founder and creative director of Buttermill Creative. And you just listen to the Kirk and Kurtz Design podcast with the amazing, stupendous, creative, fabulous, not shiny object chasing Mike Wilson from Copper Gate Creative, uh Copper Right Design Company. And uh we'll talk to you next time. Peace. Ah okay, we're done. All right. Yay. Thank you, man. That was awesome.

Speaker 3 48:53

Yeah, super fun. Um, I could note on that stuff all the time, and I'm like going through whatever.

Speaker 1 49:00

Thank you so much for tuning in to the Kirk and Curse Design Podcast. A very special thanks to our guest, Michael Wilson. You can find out more about Michael in the podcast description. Peace.